What makes a song have a Religious Naturalist theme?

[vandermude]

There are well over a hundred songs currently posted in the Religious Naturalist Songbook.
http://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1 ... 0NamGitSN0
https://religious-naturalist-associatio ... -projects/

But most of these songs are not about Religious Naturalism per se. They exemplify the types of sentiments and virtues that RN encompasses.

For example:
Peter Mayer's "Blue Boat Home" is a good example of a Religious Naturalist song.
But
Ric Masten's "Let It Be A Dance" is not Religious Naturalist in its theme. But it presents a sentiment that many RNs share.

This came up recently because I was looking at Joni Mitchell's songs to see which could be included in the Songbook. I cannot think of any of Joni's songs that are explicitly Religious Naturalist in theme. But there are over a dozen songs that illustrate RN sensibilities. Her song "Ethiopia", for example, with its characterization of human suffering, human waste and environmental degradation. On the other hand, "Little Green" is a lovely song, but not one that I would include in the songbook. Being a lovely song is nice, but the songs should emphasize an RN theme or sentiment, which this does not. Otherwise, the Songbook loses its purpose of being songs about Religious Naturalism and just becomes a list of Songs I Really Like To Listen To.

So I pose the question: What is the difference?

Stated another way: songs can be classified as being Religious Naturalist in theme or in sentiment or neither. What criteria determine where to put a given song?

Tony Van der Mude

[MarkI]

Tony,

I don't think there could be any objective or universal criterion for being a religious naturalist song. Everyone comes to music with their own perspective and interpretation. So I am satisfied with the criterion for a song being in the songbook is that at least one person considers it to have a religious naturalist theme or sentiment.

As for Joni Mitchell, how have we gotten this far without any of her songs in the songbook yet? Thank you for addressing this omission! Just off the top of my head, I myself would say the classics "Both Sides Now" and "Big Yellow Taxi" belong, the former for carefully inspecting clouds, love, and life, surely religious naturalist favorites, and the latter for its environmentalism.

"Ethiopia" has the environmentalism too, and it also has the great line "little garden planet, oasis in space" that might be enough on its own. "Little Green" is a special case. We know now it's about Joni's newborn daughter who, since Joni was an abandoned penniless 21-year-old, had to be given up for adoption. It's the sort of extremely personal song that I could very much see people strongly disagreeing whether it could be called religious naturalist.

Mark

[vandermude]

Thanks, Mark for the comments. I have over a dozen of Joni's songs queued up. They have taken extra effort to finish, so I hope to post them this weekend. I try to accompany each one with a video, preferably of a live performance. What makes Joni's songs challenging is that they have a library of hundreds of videos on her website https://jonimitchell.com/ and I prefer to use this as my source rather than my typical approach of selecting them on YouTube (which does a great job, by the way). The videos from the Joni Mitchel site sometimes come with commentary, so they are especially useful.

Tony

[Emerson]

Mark said: “ I don't think there could be any objective or universal criterion for being a religious naturalist song. Everyone comes to music with their own perspective and interpretation.”

I can’t offer any further guidance about to include or exclude from an RN songbook than to echo Mark. RN like humanism in general struggles with being more of what it isn’t than what it is.

“Both Sides Now” should intuitively be in … for sure … as a preference of mine. Bob Dylan’s life time work … generally considered to be political … is better thought of as moral humanism … or cultural commentary with a vent for calling out false positioning or defending truthfulness within tribal rivalries.

That spells poetic religious naturalism to me … he isn’t on a mission … he is trying to hold up a mirror to falseness in culture … to see what is left.

I will offer Dylan’s “My Back Pages” quoting his 2 first verses:

“ Crimson flames tied through my ears
Rollin’ high and mighty traps
Pounced with fire on flaming roads
Using ideas as my maps
“We’ll meet on edges, soon,” said I
Proud ’neath heated brow
Ah, but I was so much older then
I’m younger than that now

Half-wracked prejudice leaped forth
“Rip down all hate,” I screamed
Lies that life is black and white
Spoke from my skull. I dreamed
Romantic facts of musketeers
Foundationed deep, somehow
Ah, but I was so much older then
I’m younger than that now”

- Dylan 1961

The whole song is golden. Not surprisingly it was selected as the keynote I think for the 30th anniversary concert celebration (https://youtu.be/rGEIMCWob3U) (Official Vevo version).

That performance featured an ensemble performing solos for the different verses (Harrison, Petty, Clapton etc) with Dylan selecting the 5th verse for himself (I’m not trying to make too much out of that … as placement in the live performance sequence probably mattered most). But here is the 5th verse (probably my favorite or tied with the 3rd verse):

5th:
“ In a soldier’s stance, I aimed my hand
At the mongrel dogs who teach
Fearing not that I’d become my enemy
In the instant that I preach
My pathway led by confusion boats
Mutiny from stern to bow
Ah, but I was so much older then
I’m younger than that now”

3rd:
“ Girls’ faces formed the forward path
From phony jealousy
To memorizing politics
Of ancient history
Flung down by corpse evangelists
Unthought of, though, somehow
Ah, but I was so much older then
I’m younger than that now”

But the final verse probably says it all.

6th:
“ Yes, my guard stood hard when abstract threats
Too noble to neglect
Deceived me into thinking
I had something to protect
Good and bad, I define these terms
Quite clear, no doubt, somehow
Ah, but I was so much older then
I’m younger than that now”

If that isn’t a certain realistic version of naturalism with an emphasis on truth in the making … I don’t know what is.

Ideas are definitely my map through the confusion of life in the world of nature.

Be prepared and be kind,
- Emerson

[MarkI]

Emerson, I added My Back Pages to the songbook. (See Tony's first link upthread for the address.) Kind of related (in the sense of freeing oneself from putting everything in a tidy box), this weekend I actually heard a good song on the radio (remember when radio was once the source of all one's new music?) Here is a link to audio and lyrics of Not A Love Song sung by Sasami (ignore the last 40 seconds of filler): https://youtu.be/YaA0s9k31Y8
Mark I

[Emerson]

I agree with Tony’s point about a potential difference between sentiments that align and reflections of RN positions.

This could be identified in the songbook or there could be two divisions. The authors themselves might have opinions if they could be asked … but that isn’t usually possible.

But this raises a question I have been edging toward in our recent exchanges that I don’t think has been specifically addressed anywhere in our emails:

Is RN a humanist philosophy with an ethical overtone
or a religious lifestyle within a scientific grounding?

That Q probably should be in a different category than this one about music, but it fits here as well as perhaps the dividing line Tony is getting at?

Say it with a song
- Emerson

[vandermude]

"Is RN a humanist philosophy with an ethical overtone or a religious lifestyle within a scientific grounding?"

That is definitely a topic for discussion. The Music topic is definitely not the place for this discussion.

Tony

[Emerson]

Tony,
Thnx. I agree. I moved tge Q to the RNA Central Story section under RNA Core, and cited a piece written by Ursula for NPR back in 2014.

Later,
- E

[Andrew]

I would daresay no music currently has a Religious Naturalist theme because none has been deliberately composed as such. As with many art forms, it is a matter of interpretation. I suggested "Wheel In The Sky" by Journey because its chorus suggested to me the continuous march of the seasons and the inevitability of change and evolution, and invoked a deep response in me when I saw them perform the song live. That was good enough for me.

That said, I'll be very interested when a Religious Naturalist does turn to expressing their stance in music.